THIS COULD BE IT
Should Bucket Lists Be Buried Alive?
Listen and find out.
THIS COULD BE IT
Should Bucket Lists Be Buried Alive?
Listen and find out.
5
Should Bucket Lists Be Buried Alive?
In this unfathomably engaging quickie, Mike and Jodi explore the true value and pitfalls of bucket lists. They discuss how these lists reflect our life priorities, the influence of culture and marketing, and how living with intention can make bucket lists meaningful or redundant. Are YOU a bucket list fan?
« I think it's not so much that we record things [on our bucket lists] and feel good in the moment and then let it squander. I think it's also like, 'oh, honey, are we busted because it shows we're not living now?' We're gonna basically admit to living later. »
Jodi Wellman
Co-host
Episode Stuff
Key Topics
00:18
Exploring the Concept of Bucket Lists
04:18
The Psychology Behind Bucket Lists
08:31
Living with Gusto vs. Creating Lists
12:03
Real-Life Stories and Bucket List Inspirations
17:45
The Impact of Bucket Lists on Well-Being
27:25
- The cultural perception of bucket lists
- The psychological purpose of creating a bucket list
- Research findings on bucket list items and motivations
- The impact of mortality awareness on life goals
- The difference between superficial and meaningful bucket list items
- "Are bucket lists just ffff...it lists?"
- "Material goals often don't lead to fulfillment."
- "Travel is the most common bucket list item."
00:18
Exploring the Concept of Bucket Lists
04:18
The Psychology Behind Bucket Lists
08:31
Living with Gusto vs. Creating Lists
12:03
Real-Life Stories and Bucket List Inspirations
17:45
The Impact of Bucket Lists on Well-Being
27:25
TRANSCRIPT
Mike Steger 00:01
Welcome to this could be it. You know, most of us are trying to live well in a world that doesn't tell us how, and we're just trying to figure out what that actually looks like, one conversation at a time. Today, we're diving into a quickie.
Jodi Wellman 00:18
Welcome to the this could be a quickie. Today, we are going to talk about bucket lists. Good, bad. Should they be buried alive? Are they actually helpful for living, or is it actually an indication that we really are already flatlined? I don't know. We're going to solve this in the quickie that we're here for today, aren't we, Mike?
Mike Steger 00:34
Yeah, I guess you could say bucket lists. Are they just it lists? Yeah. Okay. I like how modest
Jodi Wellman 00:42
you are there. By the way, do you know that that quote should be attributed to Jerry Seinfeld?
Mike Steger 00:47
Really,
Jodi Wellman 00:48
he was quoted as saying, "Here's what I think about bucket lists. I just changed the B to an F and call it a day.
Mike Steger 00:56
Wow. Okay. So I ripped off Jerry Seinfeld. Comedians do not like it when you steal their jokes. So I think I'm in big trouble. I've got a limited amount of time to live. I should figure out what I want to do before I kick the bucket, right? I should, right?
Jodi Wellman 01:10
I mean, it does sound noble, but you sound like you're going toward yeah, yeah, but
Mike Steger 01:16
well, Jerry Seinfeld's going to off me. You just, I just, that's what I heard you say,
Jodi Wellman 01:20
yeah, exactly? Because don't you find when you ask people about the bucket list topic, which I tend to bring up a lot, because it's sort of like part of the brand that I like to talk about, I find I get like two reactions. There are people who are raring to go, like they want to tell you, they want to show you their PowerPoint, or there are some people that appear a little bit panicked. Do you see that? Feel that? Yeah.
Mike Steger 01:45
No one ever brings it up to me. Yeah, I don't think they think that's something that I maybe take seriously, or because I'm obviously so youthful, I have many, many-I mean, so many years to get through before I finally do get to reach middle age. Yeah, I don't know why. I don't think people. I don't think people think I. I don't think they think I engage with bucket lists. I don't. I'm not sure. Okay,
Jodi Wellman 02:13
fascinating because it could indicate that people don't care about you or your life. That could be one. Forget
Mike Steger 02:19
about That explanation
Jodi Wellman 02:21
number two, you said something like they don't think you would take it seriously, which I think there's an undercurrent there because you're a researcher. Did you just reveal your honest to gonish truth that I actually don't know about? By the way, like people, anybody listening right now, Mike, do you not believe in bucket lists? What's the story?
Mike Steger 02:38
I not believe in bucket lists. Like I feel like what like really did the movie starring I can't remember who and the other person
Jodi Wellman 02:47
Morgan Freeman could have been
Mike Steger 02:50
him could have been Tom Hanks Tom Hanks is in all those movies it seems like Jimmy Stewart it could have been maybe Kenny Tatum I mean who knows you just put any. I mean, I'm sure they were fantastic. Remember Morgan Freeman, of course, but some white guy, I guess, probably old enough to be worried about kicking the bucket. And then now we all have to do it. Like that seems bonkers to me. Like I, I really don't like it. I just reject immediately when pop culture tells me I need to start doing something.
Jodi Wellman 03:18
Yeah, yeah, that is a definite throughline for you, okay? But what what if there wasn't a popular movie, and what if we were just having a conversation of, "Hey, our time's limited. You already you already named that.
Mike Steger 03:32
Yeah,
Jodi Wellman 03:32
wouldn't it be valuable to somehow capture our goals and dreams and hopes so that we might be accountable? Would that be enticing to you?
Mike Steger 03:42
You know, my guess, my best guess would be, and I, you know, I would go off on this, explore this more. But we are having a quickie with everybody right now, so we have to get straight to the point. My best guess is this would be what we would call secondary coping, right? Where thinking about something makes it seem as if we're doing something. So thinking about all the things we would do if time was really short, even though we already know it is, we create a list. It makes us feel like we've sorted something out, and then we move on to going back to regular life without anything changing. That would be my suspicion. Just coming at this from someone who, as you pointed out, no one cares about, nor will they talk to me. So I don't know any actual humans, according to my lovely co-host. But I've studied them from afar, perhaps, and they seem to do stuff like that all the time.
Jodi Wellman 04:36
Okay. Well, for the record, I am going to be asking you about what might be on if you were forced to write a bucket list, but we'll be on it. I want to not lose the plot about what you just said about this secondary coping stuff, because you're highlighting something that I have disdain for. So even though I'm, I will ask people about bucket lists, and it should be something I like. I. I am highly suspicious of them as well,
Mike Steger 05:03
yeah. And
Jodi Wellman 05:03
I think that we're going to wrap this quickie up like super quickie fast. But I think there's a place for them, so I'm not going to shit all over them. But I will piss all over them by saying, "I'm going to change that.
Mike Steger 05:16
I don't think we can. That seems so natural. No, I'm not going to say the two reactions to things in life are shitting on them or pissing on them. Presumably, those are even things that you like. I don't know. I could
Jodi Wellman 05:31
have said spat on them. I could spit on them. I'm not a spitter either. I'm not going to shit all over bucket list. But what I will say is that I think there's merit. But I think your point is true. You know that thing about positive fantasies. It's like that notion. It's like I feel just good enough that I recorded my dream on my I don't know spreadsheet or in my little free journal, and it gives me just enough of a lift to feel like I'm good for today. And
Mike Steger 05:59
yeah, I
Jodi Wellman 06:00
think that the road, you know how the road to hell, paved with good intentions. I think that the road to the grave is paved with brimmingly full bucket lists that people have had these pseudo satisfactory ideas that I'm gonna go to Prague, but then they don't make a plan to go to Prague, and then they die not going to Prague, and then it just felt what good to write it down.
Mike Steger 06:19
Yeah, felt really good write down because you took it seriously. You took finite time seriously, and you thought really carefully about what would complete your life. I think also the framing of things in these these bucket list exercises might be critical, right? So
Jodi Wellman 06:39
interesting,
Mike Steger 06:40
Jodi. I know you're the expert on this, even though you know you're not necessarily you're you're only willing to pee on bucket lists, not poo on bucket lists, according to a phrase. Now I think I've guaranteed you can't cut out of the episode. Yeah, right. But you know, I have been doing some poking around, and you know, I do have some some thoughts on on this. Now they've done some research, my own research, looking into it. I didn't conduct any research; I just read other people's research. But I want to know what you think. So yeah, so there's the risk that people are just doing these to feel better, to placate their themselves, to soothe their emotions to make them feel like they did a profound act when seems like they maybe didn't is that is that am I capturing your your insights correctly I
Jodi Wellman 07:34
think you're capturing so much of the essence I think that there's a part B to it as well which I'd like your input on which is let's imagine a reality where we are living life with such gusto, whatever that means for us, right? So it doesn't have to mean when I say gusto, it doesn't have to mean that it's like full of all the crazy like travels and parties and things. It doesn't need to be like that. But living a life that you love, it would render the bucket list pointless because we would feel like, if hypothetically we were, you know, as you plan to die, killed by a meteor, you'd be like, I put it all out there, like I killed it while I was here. I didn't need to record stuff. Maybe you would have a a list of things for consideration, like, oh yeah, the next time I travel, it would be neat to maybe consider Prague. But I do believe that it reveals how we maybe aren't living with full integrity on this whole like living like we mean it thing, and so I find that that's another way of looking at it, and that that's the most uncomfortable part. I think it's not so much that we record things and feel good in the moment and then let it squander. I think it's also like, oh, honey, is this? Are we busted because it shows we're not living now? We're gonna basically admit to living later. So one,
Mike Steger 08:51
yeah. Well, one message I could pull from that then is like, if you're living a boring, ungustoy life, maybe a bucket list is more useful for you than someone who's already living a full, interesting, meaningful, rich life.
Jodi Wellman 09:09
Interesting. Yes, and I don't want it to sound like judgment that boring people can fill out the bucket list template, but the rest of it.
Mike Steger 09:22
I guess I should say I don't mean boring people. Maybe just bored people.
Jodi Wellman 09:26
Bored. Yeah. That. Thank you. Bored people.
Mike Steger 09:28
That's not judgy, right? It's like people who are themselves are reacting to their lives as if there's not enough there.
Jodi Wellman 09:34
Great point. Yeah. So I think that's that's where there's a nudge. Yeah. If I acknowledge, but then that should still be intel. Like if you're feeling like, "Wow, I really want to capture stuff to do, let that be the light bulb that goes off. Say,
Mike Steger 09:53
"Yeah, is
Jodi Wellman 09:54
there room for more living now?
Mike Steger 09:57
Well, you've worked. You've been in this speaking in this space. Writing this space, you must hear people tell you stories about how your work has inspired them, how it's nudged them out of complacency and into gusto, gustoed them unexpectedly, and so like, what do people tell you that you know I did I decided what I really needed to do was, you know, go and see the pyramids for real. That's really mine, right? Like, I think I, I think you know, we'll get it. We can do that more in a longer episode. But like, yeah, that was one thing I realized. Like, yeah, I go like that would be a little poopy, poopy if I didn't go see the the pyramids, right? So let's say that that, like, yeah. After realizing how few Mondays I have left, after realizing that, you know, as the saying goes, everyone dies, but not everyone lives, right? Like all those sorts of ideas, like that would be a sign that I'm alive. Which is actually, I don't, I don't mean to ask my own question, but like this idea that like bucket lists tell you you're really living if you do them or something. But anyway, like let's we can't get into that. We can only get into what stories have you heard? What's
Jodi Wellman 11:11
juicy? What's out there? Okay, I received an email just last week from a woman who moved her family to the East Coast. She was not living on the East Coast, but that was a big thing that they wanted to do, and she's so delighted that they did it. I don't know why she wanted to do it. I'm not going to question her. I will not question anyone's dreams, but that was the thing. She always wanted
Mike Steger 11:31
to live in Delaware. I mean, who doesn't?
Jodi Wellman 11:33
It's the dream. Yes, it's the Delaware dream. That's that's their marketing campaign soon to come out. Their license plate. There was a recent response from a reader, so I do a blog every Monday, and someone responded back by talking about how they planned a family reunion, and it was in the Scottish Highlands because they did all the whole 23andme thing, and they made that whole thing happen, and they were so they were going to wait until they retired. And here's the cool part: is they didn't, they they didn't wait. Is the point, and so that was an excellent example. Someone going for this thing, admittedly, like when it comes to there's consistency around bucket list research. Like most people, for their bucket list item, it does revolve around travel initially. It revolves around accomplishment of a personal goal, and so a lot of people will be like, "I did like the triathlon, and sometimes it's even signing up for it, which I love because that's the gesture. It's like you showed you gave a care, and so I do hear from a lot of people who've like committed to applying for the school, right? Like, woohoo! I applied for grad school. Like, good for you. We don't know what's going to happen, but good for you because you did it. Or I went and I registered online for that for that, you know, art program or the writers' workshop at the Iowa. You know, so I hear so much about it, and clearly, I'm not excited about it at all.
Mike Steger 12:56
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I know the study you're talking about.
Jodi Wellman 13:00
Do you,
Mike Steger 13:01
mrs. Wellman? Yeah, Perry Perryakoli et al. 2018 Journal of Palliative Medicine, common items on bucket lists. Yeah, that's real thing. These are these over 3,000 U.S. internet respondents.
Jodi Wellman 13:17
Yeah, from
Mike Steger 13:18
2015. That's a long time ago, but yeah, desire to travel is number one, especially among college-educated women. So maybe having a travel bucket list is a good way to meet college-educated women. We'll talk about dating later, obviously, in another one. Accomplish a personal goal, 78.3% Number two, very close. But I was looking at some of these goals. Yeah, like what? Acquire master's degree. Fly on a private jet. Get list item. Become a tycoon. Like I don't know what century these people are living in, but they're going to become a tycoon and drive a Porsche, and then you can die. Happy that you've led a fulfilling life because you got into Porsche. I mean, I'm not making fun of like if a Porsche seems fantastic for some reason to somebody, but like a lot of these also are travel or very materialistic and unlikely to lead to any kind of sense of fulfillment. Okay, see that
Jodi Wellman 14:24
comes from you. That comes from meaning, man. And I love that you're going here because I do never
Mike Steger 14:29
use one Porsche private jet, an official tycoon member badge at a time.
Jodi Wellman 14:37
You because that's what you do get the badge when you become one,
Mike Steger 14:41
yeah.
Jodi Wellman 14:42
Very exclusive membership.
Mike Steger 14:44
Super exclusive.
Jodi Wellman 14:44
I do feel the need right now to put our friendship at risk. I don't want to become a tycoon. This is
Mike Steger 14:51
this is after you said I. I don't. No one wants to talk to me, right?
Jodi Wellman 14:56
I just thought I was stating the obvious. This is not like anything new. Just a
Mike Steger 15:01
texting friendship, everyone. Yeah, she doesn't. You can't actually stand to talk to me.
Jodi Wellman 15:05
No, I think you're the best. I have a very sketchy bucket list, as discussed before, because I feel like I don't know. I'm living now, but what I will say, I have notions.
Speaker 1 15:18
Yeah,
Jodi Wellman 15:18
and one of the things is be on a private jet, so it's funny you mention that one because that is an example. But now that does not define me. It's not like if I can be on the PJ, call it a day, like take me down. I can like dash the private jet because the best is just gonna
Mike Steger 15:35
have like an orgy on there or something with your favorite musician or something like, or a family on a private jet, or your hands are on a private jet. I mean, like, what are you doing? You just you can't stand up. As far as I understand, I've not been on one, but you can't stand up on private jet. Like, because you're so short, you have to crawl through the bathroom. Which
Jodi Wellman 15:56
my understanding,
Mike Steger 15:58
try to drink too much. I'm kidding. I don't do that anymore. True. My
Jodi Wellman 16:02
understanding is that there is champagne, there's candy, and I just like the idea of it. Allow me to now defend on behalf.
Mike Steger 16:11
Totally invited. Perfect. Who doesn't love going to a stranger's wedding? Proceed though. I don't mean to put my hand.
Jodi Wellman 16:17
I'm going to proceed. I'm just going to pee
Mike Steger 16:19
on them. Yeah.
Jodi Wellman 16:22
Okay. Here's where I think a lot of people will be productive, and then say this therefore means that you are shallow. When I could say this is one of a million musings I have. Like I am a very zesty person. I want to do a billion things, of which on my bucket list, by the way, because I will insert here, I have a friend who feels very anti bucket list. She thinks it's an indication of privilege, and it's all about people that are at the top of the hierarchy of needs, and that we all just like all we want to do is go and have like private jet fun. And I want to say it's also conceivable that on a hypothetical list, I could also want to do a Habitat for Humanity thing. I could also want to shepherd a young child into a better way of living through education. So all I'm getting at is that it doesn't need to be just frothy.
Mike Steger 17:21
Well, one of the things I found to be quite interesting is that there seems to be two types of journals where this research is published. Number one, Journal of Palliative Medicine, right? Like, so people who are dealing with those folks where pain management, hospice care, comfort on the way out the door, yeah, is primary concern. Other journals about death, you know, it's a study, and the journal mortality. I can tell you about. We don't really have enough time, but I will say. And then there's the other one, which is tourism research. Tons of this stuff gets published in tourism journals, which should make us be curious at the very least, right? So it does seem like it's a marketing goldmine for tourism because travel shows up all the time. There's one from tourism research; they looked at people, you know, who could they could capture from social media. So it's not fantastic, but like number one, unlike the first study where 90% or something like that said they had a bucket list, especially religious people, right? Which is interesting. In this tourism research study, only 52% said that they had a bucket list. So Facebook regular people read it. Regular people, and number one was travel the world. Number two was learn a different language. Number three was fall in love. Number four was throw a dart on a map and go wherever it lands. Number five was climb a mountain, learn to play a musical instrument. Number G, I lost track, was donate a sum of money to charity. I was like, "Come on! Oh, I had like all funny. I had funny little things to say. So for throw a dart on a map and go wherever it lands, my funny thing to say is that probably in the middle of the ocean, like this is how bad a geography we are. You know, most the throw a dart, you're gonna drown yourself. Climb a mountain, define mountain. Ha ha! Right. Donate a sum of money to charity. Why haven't you already done that? I'm like just losing my mind. Right, publish a book. Ride in a hot air balloon comes above. Publish a book, and then come swim with a dol. Swim with dolphins. Like, is anyone asking the poor dolphins? Plant a tree again. Why have they not done this yet? Number L, donate blood. I mean, it starts to seem like a joke. Like
Jodi Wellman 19:44
do it today.
Mike Steger 19:46
There's one number M, tie my shoes, wipe my butt. I mean, like then finally win a lottery, jackpot, run a marathon, and become famous. But travel wins, blah blah blah blah. Yeah. But there's a couple things that kind of turn the dial up. I want to hit before we wrap it up here. Number one, one of the studies was from students at three different universities, including a historically black college university, a large state school, and a smaller private school. It was students who were taking death and dying courses in sociology and psychology. Right, so people are thinking about it a little bit more. Number one on their list was not private jet. It was not travel. It was altruistic activities, right? So as a class assignment, maybe they're trying to impress the teacher. They're not like, yeah, I want to be like Jodi and have like a crazy orgy in the sky with Pitbull and you know, like Katy Perry, I'm. I don't know, right? But I can't remember what you said. I can't remember what you
Speaker 2 20:46
said,
Mike Steger 20:46
Jodi, right? But or travel to Pensacola, Florida, right? So all these important things other people list them. There's, but travel did come second, and thrill experiences came third, and then end of life or death preparation activities came 14th. I assume this means self embalming, but I'm not really sure. Family bonding shows up eventually. Religious spiritual activities. So people who are like thinking about this stuff seem to write a slightly different list. And this dovetails with another interesting study that I want to tell you about. This is this one's by Chu et al. in geropsychology. It's the psychology of aging. They had a bunch of different studies. The outcomes are a little bit warped, but basically they said, "What's on your bucket list? Generate five to 20 items. In condition one, they said, "That's it. In condition two, they said six months to live. In condition three, they said, "Imagine you have one week to live. So, what changed? And they only had three categories, which makes us aggravating stage read. But when time was no object, self concept was the most important thematic category of what people did. Right?
Jodi Wellman 21:55
What do you mean?
Mike Steger 21:57
Like you know, self improvement, self knowledge. That's why we travel. That's why we do thrill activities, stuff like that. Number two was knowledge about the world, like learn a new language. You know, take a cooking lesson from a chef in Rome, whatever. And then emotional stuff was last, like some sort of emotionally impactful experience. But when you start giving them time limits, emotion rockets to the top. They want an emotional experience that can involve family, that can involve intimacy, right? So the intimacy rises, and the self improvement, self, you know, exploration falls,
Jodi Wellman 22:39
right?
Mike Steger 22:39
That gets us to the final study, the one that's going to make you cry.
Jodi Wellman 22:43
Okay, I'm ready. Hang on.
Mike Steger 22:45
Yeah, this is a scoping review. Yeah, good. Fulfilling end of life dreams: a scoping review of bucket lists in palliative and hospice care. This is by Handike or Handik, 2025, very recent in the journal and supportive care, they identified 2234 studies, but only 11 were relevant. That's a painful lit review. I'm telling you from mostly, yeah.
Jodi Wellman 23:09
Eliminate the tourism journals.
Mike Steger 23:11
Yeah. So this is of kids mostly who are dying, dying children. This is when you cry. Six studies reported improvements in overall well-being through wish fulfillment programs for the participants. This is like make-a-wish stuff, right? These little dying kids, 70% increase positive emotions, 34% reduced stress, 37% form positive and enduring memories. I have a note to myself in the dying kids or the families, double check. I did not. That's from Schilling and Sarah Johnny, 2014. Elevated levels of hope, positive emotions, health related quality of life, decrease in nausea among the kids, the patients, increase in gratitude and awareness of social support. Mothers reported that they saw positive changes in their children. That's child. That's 22,016. Immediate positive impact on children's energy levels, decreased parental stress about the child's disease progression. Darlington 2013, and in Patel 2019, they found reduced healthcare utilization, fewer unplanned hospital admissions, and fewer emergency department visits in the patients because not only did they have a bucket list item, but they got to do it. Oh, oh! So the big shrug, existential shrug. There, what does that mean?
Jodi Wellman 24:32
Yeah, I think the difference between all of that and what we were talking about earlier was even the completion. Now, there's a lot more. There's a lot of poignancy in what you're talking about with, especially the kids dying, and so that obviously will just screw by pretty quickly. But I will say, is it the act of checking a box because that is a vote to say I am treating my life like it is this precious gift and. I'm gonna do it, and look at me. I did it, whatever that was.
Mike Steger 25:03
Yeah, yeah.
Jodi Wellman 25:05
But how much of it? I mean, there's clearly a lot of this stuff is altruistic. It's the good stuff. It's the meaty stuff, right?
Mike Steger 25:10
Yeah, yeah. I think the message I took for the regular person who's not gonna think very deeply about it, tourism wins. I think they, I think they market the idea of a bucket list, and then we say the things that marketing tells us to say, right? Like private jet, travel, luxury experiences, driving a Porsche, throwing a Louis Vuitton handbag in the dumpster just because you can. I just love
Jodi Wellman 25:37
how like not judgmental you are at all. It's just when you're flooding your SPTR
Mike Steger 25:41
with $100 bill, you know, whatever. Throwing pennies to orphans to watch them fight to the death for it. I don't really know what like that's what marker just tell us. That's not what you think or I think. That's what marker just wants us think. I'm sure that buying sex bots by the dozens, taking them on your private jet trip, whatever it is, right? So, like, I think it, I think it pushes towards a kind of a consumeristic, materialistic trade-off. Okay, I'll do this thing that they said is part of the good life, and then I'll have a good life, and I want to have the good life before I'm dead. If we think more deeply about death than dying because we're in a death and dying class, or because we think our time is literally limited at this point, then I think some different concerns come to the fore. A little bit more giving, like I want to make that positive difference in life. And if we're just a little kid and we haven't really filled our our identity out, and we know that our time's limited, and our families around us and want to give us one last thing, and we can make a wish and we get to do it, that does tell us we did something of the life that we dream for ourselves, and maybe in those cases, a bucket list is important. So think about it for real, like we try to help you do on this podcast. Figure out what is the life that you want to fulfill that will feel great, feel like you feel big and meaningful, and then what? Do it. There you had it-a quickie with Mike and Jodi. Thanks for joining us on This Could Be It, Jodi.
Jodi Wellman 27:19
Make a wish, baby.
Mike Steger 27:22
Make a wish.
Mike Steger 00:01
Welcome to this could be it. You know, most of us are trying to live well in a world that doesn't tell us how, and we're just trying to figure out what that actually looks like, one conversation at a time. Today, we're diving into a quickie.
Jodi Wellman 00:18
Welcome to the this could be a quickie. Today, we are going to talk about bucket lists. Good, bad. Should they be buried alive? Are they actually helpful for living, or is it actually an indication that we really are already flatlined? I don't know. We're going to solve this in the quickie that we're here for today, aren't we, Mike?
Mike Steger 00:34
Yeah, I guess you could say bucket lists. Are they just it lists? Yeah. Okay. I like how modest
Jodi Wellman 00:42
you are there. By the way, do you know that that quote should be attributed to Jerry Seinfeld?
Mike Steger 00:47
Really,
Jodi Wellman 00:48
he was quoted as saying, "Here's what I think about bucket lists. I just changed the B to an F and call it a day.
Mike Steger 00:56
Wow. Okay. So I ripped off Jerry Seinfeld. Comedians do not like it when you steal their jokes. So I think I'm in big trouble. I've got a limited amount of time to live. I should figure out what I want to do before I kick the bucket, right? I should, right?
Jodi Wellman 01:10
I mean, it does sound noble, but you sound like you're going toward yeah, yeah, but
Mike Steger 01:16
well, Jerry Seinfeld's going to off me. You just, I just, that's what I heard you say,
Jodi Wellman 01:20
yeah, exactly? Because don't you find when you ask people about the bucket list topic, which I tend to bring up a lot, because it's sort of like part of the brand that I like to talk about, I find I get like two reactions. There are people who are raring to go, like they want to tell you, they want to show you their PowerPoint, or there are some people that appear a little bit panicked. Do you see that? Feel that? Yeah.
Mike Steger 01:45
No one ever brings it up to me. Yeah, I don't think they think that's something that I maybe take seriously, or because I'm obviously so youthful, I have many, many-I mean, so many years to get through before I finally do get to reach middle age. Yeah, I don't know why. I don't think people. I don't think people think I. I don't think they think I engage with bucket lists. I don't. I'm not sure. Okay,
Jodi Wellman 02:13
fascinating because it could indicate that people don't care about you or your life. That could be one. Forget
Mike Steger 02:19
about That explanation
Jodi Wellman 02:21
number two, you said something like they don't think you would take it seriously, which I think there's an undercurrent there because you're a researcher. Did you just reveal your honest to gonish truth that I actually don't know about? By the way, like people, anybody listening right now, Mike, do you not believe in bucket lists? What's the story?
Mike Steger 02:38
I not believe in bucket lists. Like I feel like what like really did the movie starring I can't remember who and the other person
Jodi Wellman 02:47
Morgan Freeman could have been
Mike Steger 02:50
him could have been Tom Hanks Tom Hanks is in all those movies it seems like Jimmy Stewart it could have been maybe Kenny Tatum I mean who knows you just put any. I mean, I'm sure they were fantastic. Remember Morgan Freeman, of course, but some white guy, I guess, probably old enough to be worried about kicking the bucket. And then now we all have to do it. Like that seems bonkers to me. Like I, I really don't like it. I just reject immediately when pop culture tells me I need to start doing something.
Jodi Wellman 03:18
Yeah, yeah, that is a definite throughline for you, okay? But what what if there wasn't a popular movie, and what if we were just having a conversation of, "Hey, our time's limited. You already you already named that.
Mike Steger 03:32
Yeah,
Jodi Wellman 03:32
wouldn't it be valuable to somehow capture our goals and dreams and hopes so that we might be accountable? Would that be enticing to you?
Mike Steger 03:42
You know, my guess, my best guess would be, and I, you know, I would go off on this, explore this more. But we are having a quickie with everybody right now, so we have to get straight to the point. My best guess is this would be what we would call secondary coping, right? Where thinking about something makes it seem as if we're doing something. So thinking about all the things we would do if time was really short, even though we already know it is, we create a list. It makes us feel like we've sorted something out, and then we move on to going back to regular life without anything changing. That would be my suspicion. Just coming at this from someone who, as you pointed out, no one cares about, nor will they talk to me. So I don't know any actual humans, according to my lovely co-host. But I've studied them from afar, perhaps, and they seem to do stuff like that all the time.
Jodi Wellman 04:36
Okay. Well, for the record, I am going to be asking you about what might be on if you were forced to write a bucket list, but we'll be on it. I want to not lose the plot about what you just said about this secondary coping stuff, because you're highlighting something that I have disdain for. So even though I'm, I will ask people about bucket lists, and it should be something I like. I. I am highly suspicious of them as well,
Mike Steger 05:03
yeah. And
Jodi Wellman 05:03
I think that we're going to wrap this quickie up like super quickie fast. But I think there's a place for them, so I'm not going to shit all over them. But I will piss all over them by saying, "I'm going to change that.
Mike Steger 05:16
I don't think we can. That seems so natural. No, I'm not going to say the two reactions to things in life are shitting on them or pissing on them. Presumably, those are even things that you like. I don't know. I could
Jodi Wellman 05:31
have said spat on them. I could spit on them. I'm not a spitter either. I'm not going to shit all over bucket list. But what I will say is that I think there's merit. But I think your point is true. You know that thing about positive fantasies. It's like that notion. It's like I feel just good enough that I recorded my dream on my I don't know spreadsheet or in my little free journal, and it gives me just enough of a lift to feel like I'm good for today. And
Mike Steger 05:59
yeah, I
Jodi Wellman 06:00
think that the road, you know how the road to hell, paved with good intentions. I think that the road to the grave is paved with brimmingly full bucket lists that people have had these pseudo satisfactory ideas that I'm gonna go to Prague, but then they don't make a plan to go to Prague, and then they die not going to Prague, and then it just felt what good to write it down.
Mike Steger 06:19
Yeah, felt really good write down because you took it seriously. You took finite time seriously, and you thought really carefully about what would complete your life. I think also the framing of things in these these bucket list exercises might be critical, right? So
Jodi Wellman 06:39
interesting,
Mike Steger 06:40
Jodi. I know you're the expert on this, even though you know you're not necessarily you're you're only willing to pee on bucket lists, not poo on bucket lists, according to a phrase. Now I think I've guaranteed you can't cut out of the episode. Yeah, right. But you know, I have been doing some poking around, and you know, I do have some some thoughts on on this. Now they've done some research, my own research, looking into it. I didn't conduct any research; I just read other people's research. But I want to know what you think. So yeah, so there's the risk that people are just doing these to feel better, to placate their themselves, to soothe their emotions to make them feel like they did a profound act when seems like they maybe didn't is that is that am I capturing your your insights correctly I
Jodi Wellman 07:34
think you're capturing so much of the essence I think that there's a part B to it as well which I'd like your input on which is let's imagine a reality where we are living life with such gusto, whatever that means for us, right? So it doesn't have to mean when I say gusto, it doesn't have to mean that it's like full of all the crazy like travels and parties and things. It doesn't need to be like that. But living a life that you love, it would render the bucket list pointless because we would feel like, if hypothetically we were, you know, as you plan to die, killed by a meteor, you'd be like, I put it all out there, like I killed it while I was here. I didn't need to record stuff. Maybe you would have a a list of things for consideration, like, oh yeah, the next time I travel, it would be neat to maybe consider Prague. But I do believe that it reveals how we maybe aren't living with full integrity on this whole like living like we mean it thing, and so I find that that's another way of looking at it, and that that's the most uncomfortable part. I think it's not so much that we record things and feel good in the moment and then let it squander. I think it's also like, oh, honey, is this? Are we busted because it shows we're not living now? We're gonna basically admit to living later. So one,
Mike Steger 08:51
yeah. Well, one message I could pull from that then is like, if you're living a boring, ungustoy life, maybe a bucket list is more useful for you than someone who's already living a full, interesting, meaningful, rich life.
Jodi Wellman 09:09
Interesting. Yes, and I don't want it to sound like judgment that boring people can fill out the bucket list template, but the rest of it.
Mike Steger 09:22
I guess I should say I don't mean boring people. Maybe just bored people.
Jodi Wellman 09:26
Bored. Yeah. That. Thank you. Bored people.
Mike Steger 09:28
That's not judgy, right? It's like people who are themselves are reacting to their lives as if there's not enough there.
Jodi Wellman 09:34
Great point. Yeah. So I think that's that's where there's a nudge. Yeah. If I acknowledge, but then that should still be intel. Like if you're feeling like, "Wow, I really want to capture stuff to do, let that be the light bulb that goes off. Say,
Mike Steger 09:53
"Yeah, is
Jodi Wellman 09:54
there room for more living now?
Mike Steger 09:57
Well, you've worked. You've been in this speaking in this space. Writing this space, you must hear people tell you stories about how your work has inspired them, how it's nudged them out of complacency and into gusto, gustoed them unexpectedly, and so like, what do people tell you that you know I did I decided what I really needed to do was, you know, go and see the pyramids for real. That's really mine, right? Like, I think I, I think you know, we'll get it. We can do that more in a longer episode. But like, yeah, that was one thing I realized. Like, yeah, I go like that would be a little poopy, poopy if I didn't go see the the pyramids, right? So let's say that that, like, yeah. After realizing how few Mondays I have left, after realizing that, you know, as the saying goes, everyone dies, but not everyone lives, right? Like all those sorts of ideas, like that would be a sign that I'm alive. Which is actually, I don't, I don't mean to ask my own question, but like this idea that like bucket lists tell you you're really living if you do them or something. But anyway, like let's we can't get into that. We can only get into what stories have you heard? What's
Jodi Wellman 11:11
juicy? What's out there? Okay, I received an email just last week from a woman who moved her family to the East Coast. She was not living on the East Coast, but that was a big thing that they wanted to do, and she's so delighted that they did it. I don't know why she wanted to do it. I'm not going to question her. I will not question anyone's dreams, but that was the thing. She always wanted
Mike Steger 11:31
to live in Delaware. I mean, who doesn't?
Jodi Wellman 11:33
It's the dream. Yes, it's the Delaware dream. That's that's their marketing campaign soon to come out. Their license plate. There was a recent response from a reader, so I do a blog every Monday, and someone responded back by talking about how they planned a family reunion, and it was in the Scottish Highlands because they did all the whole 23andme thing, and they made that whole thing happen, and they were so they were going to wait until they retired. And here's the cool part: is they didn't, they they didn't wait. Is the point, and so that was an excellent example. Someone going for this thing, admittedly, like when it comes to there's consistency around bucket list research. Like most people, for their bucket list item, it does revolve around travel initially. It revolves around accomplishment of a personal goal, and so a lot of people will be like, "I did like the triathlon, and sometimes it's even signing up for it, which I love because that's the gesture. It's like you showed you gave a care, and so I do hear from a lot of people who've like committed to applying for the school, right? Like, woohoo! I applied for grad school. Like, good for you. We don't know what's going to happen, but good for you because you did it. Or I went and I registered online for that for that, you know, art program or the writers' workshop at the Iowa. You know, so I hear so much about it, and clearly, I'm not excited about it at all.
Mike Steger 12:56
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I know the study you're talking about.
Jodi Wellman 13:00
Do you,
Mike Steger 13:01
mrs. Wellman? Yeah, Perry Perryakoli et al. 2018 Journal of Palliative Medicine, common items on bucket lists. Yeah, that's real thing. These are these over 3,000 U.S. internet respondents.
Jodi Wellman 13:17
Yeah, from
Mike Steger 13:18
2015. That's a long time ago, but yeah, desire to travel is number one, especially among college-educated women. So maybe having a travel bucket list is a good way to meet college-educated women. We'll talk about dating later, obviously, in another one. Accomplish a personal goal, 78.3% Number two, very close. But I was looking at some of these goals. Yeah, like what? Acquire master's degree. Fly on a private jet. Get list item. Become a tycoon. Like I don't know what century these people are living in, but they're going to become a tycoon and drive a Porsche, and then you can die. Happy that you've led a fulfilling life because you got into Porsche. I mean, I'm not making fun of like if a Porsche seems fantastic for some reason to somebody, but like a lot of these also are travel or very materialistic and unlikely to lead to any kind of sense of fulfillment. Okay, see that
Jodi Wellman 14:24
comes from you. That comes from meaning, man. And I love that you're going here because I do never
Mike Steger 14:29
use one Porsche private jet, an official tycoon member badge at a time.
Jodi Wellman 14:37
You because that's what you do get the badge when you become one,
Mike Steger 14:41
yeah.
Jodi Wellman 14:42
Very exclusive membership.
Mike Steger 14:44
Super exclusive.
Jodi Wellman 14:44
I do feel the need right now to put our friendship at risk. I don't want to become a tycoon. This is
Mike Steger 14:51
this is after you said I. I don't. No one wants to talk to me, right?
Jodi Wellman 14:56
I just thought I was stating the obvious. This is not like anything new. Just a
Mike Steger 15:01
texting friendship, everyone. Yeah, she doesn't. You can't actually stand to talk to me.
Jodi Wellman 15:05
No, I think you're the best. I have a very sketchy bucket list, as discussed before, because I feel like I don't know. I'm living now, but what I will say, I have notions.
Speaker 1 15:18
Yeah,
Jodi Wellman 15:18
and one of the things is be on a private jet, so it's funny you mention that one because that is an example. But now that does not define me. It's not like if I can be on the PJ, call it a day, like take me down. I can like dash the private jet because the best is just gonna
Mike Steger 15:35
have like an orgy on there or something with your favorite musician or something like, or a family on a private jet, or your hands are on a private jet. I mean, like, what are you doing? You just you can't stand up. As far as I understand, I've not been on one, but you can't stand up on private jet. Like, because you're so short, you have to crawl through the bathroom. Which
Jodi Wellman 15:56
my understanding,
Mike Steger 15:58
try to drink too much. I'm kidding. I don't do that anymore. True. My
Jodi Wellman 16:02
understanding is that there is champagne, there's candy, and I just like the idea of it. Allow me to now defend on behalf.
Mike Steger 16:11
Totally invited. Perfect. Who doesn't love going to a stranger's wedding? Proceed though. I don't mean to put my hand.
Jodi Wellman 16:17
I'm going to proceed. I'm just going to pee
Mike Steger 16:19
on them. Yeah.
Jodi Wellman 16:22
Okay. Here's where I think a lot of people will be productive, and then say this therefore means that you are shallow. When I could say this is one of a million musings I have. Like I am a very zesty person. I want to do a billion things, of which on my bucket list, by the way, because I will insert here, I have a friend who feels very anti bucket list. She thinks it's an indication of privilege, and it's all about people that are at the top of the hierarchy of needs, and that we all just like all we want to do is go and have like private jet fun. And I want to say it's also conceivable that on a hypothetical list, I could also want to do a Habitat for Humanity thing. I could also want to shepherd a young child into a better way of living through education. So all I'm getting at is that it doesn't need to be just frothy.
Mike Steger 17:21
Well, one of the things I found to be quite interesting is that there seems to be two types of journals where this research is published. Number one, Journal of Palliative Medicine, right? Like, so people who are dealing with those folks where pain management, hospice care, comfort on the way out the door, yeah, is primary concern. Other journals about death, you know, it's a study, and the journal mortality. I can tell you about. We don't really have enough time, but I will say. And then there's the other one, which is tourism research. Tons of this stuff gets published in tourism journals, which should make us be curious at the very least, right? So it does seem like it's a marketing goldmine for tourism because travel shows up all the time. There's one from tourism research; they looked at people, you know, who could they could capture from social media. So it's not fantastic, but like number one, unlike the first study where 90% or something like that said they had a bucket list, especially religious people, right? Which is interesting. In this tourism research study, only 52% said that they had a bucket list. So Facebook regular people read it. Regular people, and number one was travel the world. Number two was learn a different language. Number three was fall in love. Number four was throw a dart on a map and go wherever it lands. Number five was climb a mountain, learn to play a musical instrument. Number G, I lost track, was donate a sum of money to charity. I was like, "Come on! Oh, I had like all funny. I had funny little things to say. So for throw a dart on a map and go wherever it lands, my funny thing to say is that probably in the middle of the ocean, like this is how bad a geography we are. You know, most the throw a dart, you're gonna drown yourself. Climb a mountain, define mountain. Ha ha! Right. Donate a sum of money to charity. Why haven't you already done that? I'm like just losing my mind. Right, publish a book. Ride in a hot air balloon comes above. Publish a book, and then come swim with a dol. Swim with dolphins. Like, is anyone asking the poor dolphins? Plant a tree again. Why have they not done this yet? Number L, donate blood. I mean, it starts to seem like a joke. Like
Jodi Wellman 19:44
do it today.
Mike Steger 19:46
There's one number M, tie my shoes, wipe my butt. I mean, like then finally win a lottery, jackpot, run a marathon, and become famous. But travel wins, blah blah blah blah. Yeah. But there's a couple things that kind of turn the dial up. I want to hit before we wrap it up here. Number one, one of the studies was from students at three different universities, including a historically black college university, a large state school, and a smaller private school. It was students who were taking death and dying courses in sociology and psychology. Right, so people are thinking about it a little bit more. Number one on their list was not private jet. It was not travel. It was altruistic activities, right? So as a class assignment, maybe they're trying to impress the teacher. They're not like, yeah, I want to be like Jodi and have like a crazy orgy in the sky with Pitbull and you know, like Katy Perry, I'm. I don't know, right? But I can't remember what you said. I can't remember what you
Speaker 2 20:46
said,
Mike Steger 20:46
Jodi, right? But or travel to Pensacola, Florida, right? So all these important things other people list them. There's, but travel did come second, and thrill experiences came third, and then end of life or death preparation activities came 14th. I assume this means self embalming, but I'm not really sure. Family bonding shows up eventually. Religious spiritual activities. So people who are like thinking about this stuff seem to write a slightly different list. And this dovetails with another interesting study that I want to tell you about. This is this one's by Chu et al. in geropsychology. It's the psychology of aging. They had a bunch of different studies. The outcomes are a little bit warped, but basically they said, "What's on your bucket list? Generate five to 20 items. In condition one, they said, "That's it. In condition two, they said six months to live. In condition three, they said, "Imagine you have one week to live. So, what changed? And they only had three categories, which makes us aggravating stage read. But when time was no object, self concept was the most important thematic category of what people did. Right?
Jodi Wellman 21:55
What do you mean?
Mike Steger 21:57
Like you know, self improvement, self knowledge. That's why we travel. That's why we do thrill activities, stuff like that. Number two was knowledge about the world, like learn a new language. You know, take a cooking lesson from a chef in Rome, whatever. And then emotional stuff was last, like some sort of emotionally impactful experience. But when you start giving them time limits, emotion rockets to the top. They want an emotional experience that can involve family, that can involve intimacy, right? So the intimacy rises, and the self improvement, self, you know, exploration falls,
Jodi Wellman 22:39
right?
Mike Steger 22:39
That gets us to the final study, the one that's going to make you cry.
Jodi Wellman 22:43
Okay, I'm ready. Hang on.
Mike Steger 22:45
Yeah, this is a scoping review. Yeah, good. Fulfilling end of life dreams: a scoping review of bucket lists in palliative and hospice care. This is by Handike or Handik, 2025, very recent in the journal and supportive care, they identified 2234 studies, but only 11 were relevant. That's a painful lit review. I'm telling you from mostly, yeah.
Jodi Wellman 23:09
Eliminate the tourism journals.
Mike Steger 23:11
Yeah. So this is of kids mostly who are dying, dying children. This is when you cry. Six studies reported improvements in overall well-being through wish fulfillment programs for the participants. This is like make-a-wish stuff, right? These little dying kids, 70% increase positive emotions, 34% reduced stress, 37% form positive and enduring memories. I have a note to myself in the dying kids or the families, double check. I did not. That's from Schilling and Sarah Johnny, 2014. Elevated levels of hope, positive emotions, health related quality of life, decrease in nausea among the kids, the patients, increase in gratitude and awareness of social support. Mothers reported that they saw positive changes in their children. That's child. That's 22,016. Immediate positive impact on children's energy levels, decreased parental stress about the child's disease progression. Darlington 2013, and in Patel 2019, they found reduced healthcare utilization, fewer unplanned hospital admissions, and fewer emergency department visits in the patients because not only did they have a bucket list item, but they got to do it. Oh, oh! So the big shrug, existential shrug. There, what does that mean?
Jodi Wellman 24:32
Yeah, I think the difference between all of that and what we were talking about earlier was even the completion. Now, there's a lot more. There's a lot of poignancy in what you're talking about with, especially the kids dying, and so that obviously will just screw by pretty quickly. But I will say, is it the act of checking a box because that is a vote to say I am treating my life like it is this precious gift and. I'm gonna do it, and look at me. I did it, whatever that was.
Mike Steger 25:03
Yeah, yeah.
Jodi Wellman 25:05
But how much of it? I mean, there's clearly a lot of this stuff is altruistic. It's the good stuff. It's the meaty stuff, right?
Mike Steger 25:10
Yeah, yeah. I think the message I took for the regular person who's not gonna think very deeply about it, tourism wins. I think they, I think they market the idea of a bucket list, and then we say the things that marketing tells us to say, right? Like private jet, travel, luxury experiences, driving a Porsche, throwing a Louis Vuitton handbag in the dumpster just because you can. I just love
Jodi Wellman 25:37
how like not judgmental you are at all. It's just when you're flooding your SPTR
Mike Steger 25:41
with $100 bill, you know, whatever. Throwing pennies to orphans to watch them fight to the death for it. I don't really know what like that's what marker just tell us. That's not what you think or I think. That's what marker just wants us think. I'm sure that buying sex bots by the dozens, taking them on your private jet trip, whatever it is, right? So, like, I think it, I think it pushes towards a kind of a consumeristic, materialistic trade-off. Okay, I'll do this thing that they said is part of the good life, and then I'll have a good life, and I want to have the good life before I'm dead. If we think more deeply about death than dying because we're in a death and dying class, or because we think our time is literally limited at this point, then I think some different concerns come to the fore. A little bit more giving, like I want to make that positive difference in life. And if we're just a little kid and we haven't really filled our our identity out, and we know that our time's limited, and our families around us and want to give us one last thing, and we can make a wish and we get to do it, that does tell us we did something of the life that we dream for ourselves, and maybe in those cases, a bucket list is important. So think about it for real, like we try to help you do on this podcast. Figure out what is the life that you want to fulfill that will feel great, feel like you feel big and meaningful, and then what? Do it. There you had it-a quickie with Mike and Jodi. Thanks for joining us on This Could Be It, Jodi.
Jodi Wellman 27:19
Make a wish, baby.
Mike Steger 27:22
Make a wish.
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