But wait! There's more. It's Part 2. Explore the complex and often humorous perspectives on attractiveness, self-perception, and societal standards. This conversation delves into celebrity crushes, the impact of appearance on self-worth, and the cultural obsession with beauty.

Key Topics

• The cultural obsession with attractiveness and beauty standards
• How self-perception influences happiness and self-worth
• The humorous and serious sides of celebrity crushes and 'hall passes'
• The impact of aging on perceived attractiveness and societal value
• Mental models and societal pressures around appearance

Sound Bites

• "Deep inside, everyone has a rich psychological life."
• "Media and culture heavily influence our beauty ideals."
• "Knowing your true self is the key to genuine happiness."

Chapters
00:00
The Body and Its Perception
00:26
Celebrity Comparisons and Self-Perception
04:07
Navigating Disruption and Memory
04:17
Reflections on Aging and Memory Loss
04:17
Attractiveness and Personal Preferences
07:24
The Pursuit of Attractiveness
09:27
The Impact of Attractiveness on Well-being
12:06
Self-Perception and Attractiveness
15:32
Intelligence and Self-Worth
18:51
Embodiment and Self-Perception
25:14
The Battle Between Body and Spirit
26:52
The Complexity of Attraction
30:24
Navigating Societal Norms and Personal Desires
33:11
The Impact of Self-Perception on Meaning
36:54
The Intersection of Beauty and Identity
41:20
The Relationship Between Attractiveness and Life Meaning
46:52
Wrapping Up: The Duality of Attraction and Meaning
52:18

TRANSCRIPT
Jodi Wellman 00:04
Welcome to This Could Be It, where we, Michael Steger and Jodi Wellman, have conversations about research and big ideas for living a life that matters. This is part two, by the way, of our All Things Bodies discussion. So if you missed part one, go back and check it out, or I don't know, who cares? Just dive in here because you know this could be it.

Mike Steger 00:26
You're just trying to be so pure and so deep about all this sort of stuff. So now, of course, have to say who your who your celebrity hall pass would be spent on.

Jodi Wellman 00:37
Which, by the way, according to this topic, isn't it funny that that's a thing in our world again, right? That it's like we get to be get to identify that somehow in a in a world where

Mike Steger 00:48
yeah. Well, that I mean, we probably ought to have a whole other episode on relationships, right? Because if if this is that's that concept, like you're supposed to not get naughty with anybody except for me, because we made this this relationship bond. But we we acknowledge in some ways that you might want to, and therefore we choose your possibility and your freedom to do so with an almost impossible alignment of the stars. Interesting, right? That in itself is best.

Jodi Wellman 01:22
So buzzonkers as a weird rule of society, yeah.

Mike Steger 01:27
I would like it that you have to. Like, what about that? Like, if if Brad Pitt, I know Brad Pitt's not yours, but if you did say like, oh yeah, ha ha ha, my my hall pass is Brad Pitt, and then Brad Pitt shows up and he's like, how are you doing? I know that's not his thing, but like to you, Jodi, then you then you have to like that was a contract, just like the marriage vows were

Jodi Wellman 01:48
exactly. It's like a planned, indecent proposal. Like we've already, this is this is it. That's great

Mike Steger 01:54
name, Mila Kunis or Jessica Alba. You know, like I have to. Sorry.

Jodi Wellman 01:59
There you go. Okay, there we go. So we know that they'll be on your list. I

Mike Steger 02:03
know so few celebrities by appearance that I've I've just had to learn some so I can participate in these conversations.

Jodi Wellman 02:08
I see. Just to seem current.

Mike Steger 02:11
I don't think I don't think my names are current. But like you know, current celebrities are probably quite young.

Jodi Wellman 02:17
I was just going to say, wait a second. You'd be weird in an aforementioned Epsteinish tainted way, if you did start rhyming off people that were still on the Disney Channel,

Mike Steger 02:28
yeah, we we probably even shouldn't do that. Like I shouldn't say like the person in who played Furiosa. It's very magnetic to me. Like I don't even know this. I don't

Jodi Wellman 02:37
even know who that is, but also why? Because you think she's young?

Mike Steger 02:40
She's got to be millions of years younger than me. Okay, this is just fact. So let's getting back to the most important topic.

Jodi Wellman 02:47
Yes, which is Alan Alta.

Mike Steger 02:49
Who would you? Your celebrity smash. Your smash pants.

Jodi Wellman 02:54
Alan Alda.

Mike Steger 02:56
Alan Alda is. I feel

Jodi Wellman 03:00
bad. There's nothing, you know. I don't know, but I just, I never want to make fun of who I wouldn't want to be with, like in a in a way that was disparaging.

Mike Steger 03:11
No, he had polio as a child. Don't you feel bad now? And because of the the head of the Department of Health and Human Services, we all had polio. So okay.

Jodi Wellman 03:21
Well, that reminds me just separately of studies that relate to how we perceive. Back to your symmetry point, babies are mesmerized by the pretty people, and they have not been socialized to babies

Mike Steger 03:32
are too.

Jodi Wellman 03:33
Babies, when they see a symmetrical face, they're like happy and all I don't know whatever means babies are babies are good versus crying because your face is so fucked up. There's a way to be

Mike Steger 03:45
Wallace Shawn has a symmetrical face. Would babies want to look at him versus who's got a crooked smile? Who's like a crooked smile kind of attractive person? Wasn't Paul Newman kind of like crooked smile?

Speaker 1 03:55
Yeah.

Mike Steger 03:56
So would they look at Paul Newman or Wallace Sean? Wallace Shawn's more symmetrical.

Jodi Wellman 03:59
We're gonna need to do get some babies lined up. If anybody has babies, just bring them, bring them to Fort Collins. I guess we'll meet you there. But we'll do a test. But why was I starting to tell you about that? Damn it, babies!

Mike Steger 04:10
Got me on your game because I'm quite disruptive today. I've heard you are. It's like very different.

Jodi Wellman 04:15
There's just they're little threads. Anyways, back to the celebrity situation. It's a tough

Mike Steger 04:20
one. Are you gonna be ready? I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask you again. Can you? Okay,

Jodi Wellman 04:22
that's fine. Yeah.

Mike Steger 04:25
So we'll we'll just we'll just overlook the fact that if you if you are engaging in relatable celebrity hot or not rankings, that you are we are talking about people much younger than us. That's not our fault. That's culture's fault. That sounds good. But so speaking of which, who is your or who are your many many celebrity hall passes you've you've currently decorated? Many

Jodi Wellman 04:54
many. They are lined up and they're and they're paced out and spaced out and. You know, I like less conventional looks, so I said Adrian Brody.

Mike Steger 05:06
Oh, really?

Jodi Wellman 05:10
No judgment.

Mike Steger 05:12
Was he an asshole? I don't know. Like, so it's interesting. But your people, the people on your list, I'm like, yeah, but he's an asshole. So why would you like him? But

Jodi Wellman 05:18
is he? See, well, see, I don't even. There's a

Mike Steger 05:21
while he like after the the the penist after after that then he got kind of like it all fooled himself and he's like I kick ass or I'm a mean guy now and I

Jodi Wellman 05:32
all right

Mike Steger 05:33
like Jake Littleman Taylor Swift I don't know is he a mini Jake I don't really know but no like people it's not my place to jump in on this. I will shut the fuck up.

Jodi Wellman 05:47
No, you keep going with your intel there. Is it jodi

Mike Steger 05:49
fantasy that you're telling us about?

Jodi Wellman 05:51
Well, it's like, what would it take to make someone less attractive? And instantly, that intel, whether it's true or not, my God, if someone's an asshole, like instantly gross. So that's done. Now I don't even have a hall pass anymore. I'm empty. Sit. That was my one chance.

Speaker 1 06:09
Aww. Yeah.

Mike Steger 06:10
Okay. Well, you like unconventional beauty. It's kind of where that was leading.

Jodi Wellman 06:14
Yeah. Not like not the Brad Pitt. It wouldn't be the typical. Yeah.

Mike Steger 06:19
Yeah. So so for you, you can see, you don't feel it, but you can understand the fuss over a Brad Pitt.

Jodi Wellman 06:27
Yes. Oh, for sure, I get the traditional. I think it's just obviously because I'm a lot deeper than most, right? So I go from beneath the surface. You study people

Mike Steger 06:35
like that.

Jodi Wellman 06:36
Yeah, like don't let an odd-looking nose get in the way. Don't worry, I'll see through

Mike Steger 06:43
it. Yeah, and you are so deep that you can, along with many, many other people, find Adrian Brody attractive.

Jodi Wellman 06:50
That's how deep I am. What about you? Were you serious about the Jessica Alba and

Speaker 1 06:56
Ilagunis? Yeah. Who else? I know there's others out there.

Jodi Wellman 07:03
Yeah, you don't need their name on your vision board. You just need Troy who?

Speaker 1 07:07
Halle Berry. In part because she's in a Prince song, right? From the Bat first Batman movie.

Jodi Wellman 07:15
Was she

Mike Steger 07:16
for Halle Berry? But yeah, it's like that one ends up being hard for me to be like. Well, this leads to something interesting, right? Like, if we are all supposed to be just enamored of the same kind of fitness broadcasting features, why, why do we persist in having these contests and like controversies over who's hot and who's not, and like, why is there a lot of difference there? Yeah, yeah. Supposed to be something that says, yeah, this is a you come from worthy stock, dude. Or yeah,

Speaker 1 07:52
yeah.

Jodi Wellman 07:53
There's a governing body that determines, like, you are in the pool of eligible people held hot. I guess that's really what Hollywood is, right? Except for the character actors that are the offsets to where they're like the bridesmaid that doesn't ever get that. You know, like we we obviously need someone who's very plain Jane to make the others look good. But Hollywood's decided, and it goes beyond Hollywood, so it doesn't have to just be U.S. based, but they do talk about leading

Mike Steger 08:22
man. They like leading man looks. Like, could you be a leading man? Like, right? Never be a leading man. He's just not dashing or something.

Jodi Wellman 08:29
There's like a qualifying pool, but then within it, to your point, of course there are different, like people, some like chocolate, vanilla, spimony ice cream, right? So, but it's got to be within a qualifying pool.

Speaker 1 08:43
Yeah, yeah,

Jodi Wellman 08:46
because there will be a whole host that don't make the pool. Which again, are they? So then, here is the question I get at: I think some people are aware that they're not in the above what five or six in a scale, are they? How are they in terms of well-being? Because versus the well-being of people who are eights trying to be nines, because does that rack a brain and a body and a soul and a mind to go like I like? Because we know the pursuit of attractiveness and for most like the body image issues can be detrimental to or perceived satisfaction of life, so is that worse than being a four, or is it worse to be an eight trying to be a nine? This is your next research project, dear. How?

Mike Steger 09:32
Yeah, no, I I do not know that I'm going to put this IRB out there. Although I'm very interested in this because it's it's really interesting to think about in in some ways, just to be if we're just gonna think like we're only gonna follow the data, then the data tells us people really give a lot of a shit about who's hot, who's not, who's in the middle, and the data tell us that life outcomes. Are somewhat pegged to attractiveness. So then, and we know that the pursuit of materialistic aims such as beauty or power or wealth, that those tend to be erosive to well-being, and conceivably, the better looking you are, the more you're compared to extremely good-looking people, right? Like, and that could be that could create the upright social comparison that you're always now on a hotness treadmill, right? And plus, many people age, and some people believe that as you age, you get less attractive. That's also right. I like how you said

Jodi Wellman 10:42
that. You said that like the odd person has this belief that they that they erode with age. Oh, really?

Mike Steger 10:50
That's right. My number, I my Dame Jodi Dench was at age 80 was my one and only celebrity hull pass because I'm above it all. I'm beyond it all, people. Yeah. So I think she died.

Jodi Wellman 11:04
I'm sorry. Save your

Mike Steger 11:06
tangent. But yeah, so so if we're going to really tackle this, we we would in these abstract senses because eventually we're going to have to get real about this sort of stuff, right? Because it doesn't matter at the societal level, of course, treating people differently by how they look, which they don't really have any control over, but then encouraging everyone else to take as much control as possible to look better is stupid and terrible, right? Like it's it's all downhill. It's all bad stuff. Like once you organize the society like that, so maybe that's one of the things that kicks raiding people's attractiveness as a less likely thing to happen at a meaning conference or in a meaning podcast than in some other types of venues, right? We just think like we understand those consequences, and overall, we want a better society that functions better, more beautifully for everyone, and this sort of stuff is toxic and destructive to that, but if we were to shift away from that and just like, well, is it a thing that objectively occurs? We can say that scientifically, and then it is interesting from that basis. Your question, like, how much agreement is there on who's a four, who's a five, who's a six, who's a seven? Right, 4567, That's actually all the average, right? Like two thirds of people will be a 456, or a seven, and then it's only on the extremes where you get beyond that. But in your framing, is a four who definitely knows it happier than a seven who's trying to be an eight, like that's interesting. Like, well, then we'd have to ask. Then, is a four who's trying to become a five happier than a seven who's content with being a seven, right? So, is it the striving, or is it the is it the is it the

Jodi Wellman 12:56
yes

Mike Steger 12:57
acceptance of things, or is it the base attractiveness, and or is it accurate attractiveness? Like how

Speaker 1 13:06
is it

Mike Steger 13:07
important that we know exactly our number? Right? Like should we know? I feel like there's a curb and your enthusiasm episode out there about that somewhere.

Jodi Wellman 13:16
Well, it's like knowing your weight or not knowing your weight. You know, some of you just don't want to know.

Speaker 1 13:22
Yeah,

Jodi Wellman 13:23
because information is not helpful. Is it

Mike Steger 13:25
important to be right about your weight? Is it important to be right about how attractive you are? Better to think you're more attractive than you really are. I feel that's like the Adrian Brody thing. Unless Adrian Brody wants to sponsor a podcast, then you know I'm. I think he's the hottest thing I've ever seen, right? But like, that's also that's also interesting. And studying that, you can get that. Like, what's my perceived attractiveness? What number would I give myself? Right. Who's judging? Is it people in their 50s? People in their 20s? Like, I feel like be especially brutal to put all of humanity into the blender of into the lineup of hot or not ratings for college students, I think we'd see pretty strong age biases.

Jodi Wellman 14:13
Yes, right. Yeah, there are so many different ways that could be sliced and diced. You just made me think about the overlay of we could take the same conversation and apply it to smarts, and I wonder how it if there's any difference, right? So like if someone is off like the

Mike Steger 14:31
Dunning Kruger effect for or

Jodi Wellman 14:34
maybe maybe that's it exactly.

Mike Steger 14:35
You're so ugly, you you think you don't know you're ugly. It would be

Jodi Wellman 14:39
like yeah, but other people, yeah. But what about you? Now you're a four out of 10 on the smart scale. Bit of a dumb, bit of a double. No, you not you. One no.

Mike Steger 14:51
Okay, okay.

Jodi Wellman 14:51
Hypothetical knows.

Mike Steger 14:53
I'm not prickly about this, by the way. In case you're no, it

Jodi Wellman 14:55
doesn't seem. See, this is this is interesting because it reflects what you value. Someone might. Super defensive that they're not as smart, and again, let's take comparison out of it. Although I don't think we ever could, but being a four out of 10 in terms of intelligence versus the seven out of 10-is it the striving to try to look smart or not look dumb, or is it trying to? If you're a seven, you want to go get further education, like that desire for more, or that unhappiness that comes from "I'm not enough, or that I wish I was like those other people in Menza, because I guess that's what like the Hollywood of looks is like the Hollywood of smarts. I don't know. I like the idea. Some people might be lower on the hot scale that you officially coined, and it may not really matter because for them it's like it's so important for me to be seen as smart. And then you could, of course, put any construct in there. Right? Doesn't have to be smarts, but it could. Well, what else would there be? Yeah, it's

Mike Steger 15:54
interesting, right? Because I I wonder we do have something called contingencies of self worth, right? This is Jennifer Crocker's research, which suggests that if we're rated poorly in some area that we don't give a shit about, it doesn't really doesn't really bother us, right? But if we are rated in an area that is central to our self image, we base our self worth on it, then there's outcomes of that that we don't like, right? So, you know, I think of myself, my my skill set going into the world is kind of like a blend of talents and and character strengths, right? So I think I'm funny. I think I'm I'm smart. I think I'm creative. I think I am reasonably kind and thoughtful. Right. So, like those things that people say, you're self-centered. You don't think about other people. You're selfish. You're an idiot. You think you're funny, but you're not. Like those hurt when people say. In part, I wonder some ways. Like I didn't feel welcomed into the fold growing up, right? So I didn't feel attractive. So maybe I rested all those like on deeper inner stuff, and instead of being like the good-looking guy, or maybe I wasn't the good-looking guy either, right? So, but I like that. I wonder sometimes if there's like two scales, like for people who are good-looking. I'm trying to think of like Emma Watson, for example, the Hermione from the Harry Potter movies and other things went to Brown University, I think, right, an Ivy League school, right. So probably would like people to know how smart she was. I think Natalie Portman went to Princeton. You know, then we have the blanking on her name, but the actress who played Winnie in the Wonder Years, right? Then started doing math instruction, math cool, math sexy, nerds, sexy sort of stuff, right? So, like, I think when people are seen as being attractive, they and they're also smart. They want to be known for additional stuff. Like, it's not enough for someone who's, I think, Smart to be known just for being good looking,

Jodi Wellman 18:25
right? Right. I

Mike Steger 18:26
do wonder though if people like me, who never felt like particularly good looking growing up, but could be smart, would like also like now that I feel like I've achieved smartness on a public scale, let's give me some feedback, and I'm good looking too, right? Like, is there like, why not have it all in the other way, right? I've gone through life without caring that much, but now let's find out, right? Like, is and is that a scary thing to try to figure out? Do you want to do that at all, even if we care about some domains more than others?

Jodi Wellman 19:01
Yep, and I like your point too that we will eliminate some things that just don't matter to us. So, like, don't care that I don't score well musically. That's not my thing. It also depends on the circles you're running in, right? So, I guess back to comparison. Like, you could be at a stage, or just like let's overlay another example of another human who's finding themselves in a new era of life where, like, I've proven myself over here, and now I'm in a social circle where everybody it's um it's like conspicuous consumption or like people are sort of flaunting their wealth, and so now I'm wanting more of that because like that's the current stage of life or situation that's reactive, right? Yeah, but the idea about how we're so fast to objectify others, because that's what sometimes is allowed-we're allowed to do it-and then we also do it to ourselves, right? A friend of mine refers to so her partner. She goes, "I like this wording. She said, "He is a body." But happens to be walking around with a head, whereas she contrasted herself and said, "Whereas I am a head that happens to be walking around with a body. It's such an interesting framing, right? What would you say for you?

Mike Steger 20:17
Have to try this on a little bit. Okay, so this implies that we see the that we see a world of bodies around us, and it takes us a little while to understand or appreciate that they have this rich psychological life that's just every bit as deep and wacky as our own. Right? Is how I'm interpreting this. Whereas in our, we've got so much going on inside of our heads, we're so aware of our personality and our quirks and our flaws and our hidden beauty. But then we know, like, we forget sometimes, or we resent that we have to present ourselves as as a body, or we're seen as a body to other people. Does her husband think like he is a body with a head too. He's like, I'm just a body that happens to have a head. Is he saying it on himself, or is it?

Jodi Wellman 21:06
I think he would agree, and maybe it's because of the context, which I think is true.

Mike Steger 21:11
I'm just a body, and sometimes my brain's involved in stuff.

Jodi Wellman 21:16
Yeah. No, it it's more about embodiment, and and it's a bit of a topic shift, maybe. I like layering in all that you've just said because it relates to discussion and the embodiment of like I experience life. I'm fully immersed in like my body, who I am. I've got this idea about tuning into my experience of my senses. Oh, and then it just so happens that every now and then I'll allow whatever is consciously going on in my head to influence that. But I come first at the world, like being aware of who I am, whether I'm judging it or not. In this case, he probably wouldn't be. Versus some of us who are just like thinking, thinking, thinking, and not really in touch. Like you know, when some people say, like, I have to say in the voice of like what a coach or like a therapist would say, like, where do you feel that in your body? I'm always like, well, I don't know. Like, I don't feel anything. Oh, I have to think about that. I don't know my neck. I don't know. So I'd be more like not not tuned into the body, you know, as its own thing. Because I think there's so much of us, we're not inhabiting it. We're just like optimizing it, or we are objectifying it, or we're comparing it to milakunus or something.

Mike Steger 22:30
Yeah, exactly. I think that you know, definitely it is. I'm a thinker first. I'm rooted in my internal experience, and then the body is typically an afterthought. That's actually how it's it's seen, right? It's a it's a it's an add-on feature to being a brain in psychology, right? Like the embodiment movement is is trying to help us understand that, and we we come with a lot of heritage, right? Like, I want to read some more fun Augustine quotes for you because I I could really tell you're loving that, right? So this is quoting Augustine: "The flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh. Right, like the flesh and the spirit fight each other, right? And then this one: the corruptible body weighs down the soul, and the earthly tabernacle burdens the mind that muses upon many things. Right? This idea that there's a battle between the two,

Jodi Wellman 23:32
right? Right. And and and it's so funny that it's wrong. Like we've talked before about like

Mike Steger 23:38
these old idiots. What were they? I

Jodi Wellman 23:41
would have lived in a world where it's okay to melt the two.

Mike Steger 23:43
Yes, like the

Jodi Wellman 23:44
hedonism thing, right? Like there was a time where it was like revelry, debauchery. Like let's like it's all great.

Mike Steger 23:52
Do you mean Burning Man before it got corporate?

Jodi Wellman 23:55
That's what I've heard. I've never been, but I get you. And like not to say the

Speaker 1 24:01
roaming.

Jodi Wellman 24:02
What you said, bad for you.

Mike Steger 24:03
See, I thought they. I had the proposal. I thought they should have composting man. Instead of burning this big statue, you just like compost a bunch of stuff. Get some vermiculture going because I'm so pure.

Jodi Wellman 24:16
You're loving it.

Mike Steger 24:17
Not care to be naked people wearing only body picked out there. I didn't even know that.

Jodi Wellman 24:23
Makes me feel really gross. But back to the idea, though. I don't. I don't want that. Just sounds unsanitary and like no.

Speaker 1 24:33
Yeah.

Jodi Wellman 24:34
Yet your description, though, back to Augustine. It's like it's weird, isn't it? That we there's this age old cage match between like body has to mean something that is somehow wrong and that it is a battle with. You said spirit or soul? Spirit,

Mike Steger 24:51
either

Jodi Wellman 24:52
one. Either one. Like

Mike Steger 24:52
yeah, swap it around. Yeah. Well, I've saved my I saved my most ridiculous Augustine quote for last. You ready for that? The bubbling impulses of puberty. You didn't think we'd be talking about puberty today. The bubbling impulses of puberty befogged and obscured my heart, so that it could not see the difference between love's serenity and lust's darkness. So he's talking about like almost like a solar eclipse, like puberty, lust, sexuality, sensuality-all these sort of things block out the true light. Like that's even more strongly stated, isn't it? Then, yeah, they sometimes war. Like you want to maintain your your marital vows, but you you also suddenly Brodie's like in your bathtub. What are you supposed to do, right? Like how this works.

Jodi Wellman 25:48
I don't want. For the record, now that I know he's a jerk, I do not want him in the bathtub.

Mike Steger 25:53
It's too late. You helped that agreement on record, and now as we've discussed, that's a you have to sort of situation follow through, no. Of course, you don't have to. But like, yeah,

Jodi Wellman 26:04
your thing about how it's seen as so wrong and evil, and I guess that was the point of religion for a while, right? Which is like, I will keep your mind, but they stop at

Mike Steger 26:16
that. They stop at that now. They don't judge people for their love or their sex lives. They're

Jodi Wellman 26:21
so woke now. It's just different time.

Mike Steger 26:23
Everything good, everybody. Whatever you love, your love.

Jodi Wellman 26:27
Yeah, it is such a shame that really we're coming back. I think full circle, right? To this idea that like attraction is somehow a weakness, and if I am seen as indulging in what is attractive, or even what you deem to be attractive to you, is that that's like a moral failing and life's short, man. You know, like back to my idea, which is I wanted the happy ending of like, can't we just have both? Can't we also have some depth and intellect, but while also being like, yeah, it doesn't need to be. How did you describe the dark eclipse of lost

Mike Steger 27:03
darkness.

Jodi Wellman 27:04
Darkness. Are

Mike Steger 27:04
you talking about the bubbling impulses of puberty that befogged and obscured your heart, Jodi?

Jodi Wellman 27:09
That that's another T-shirt. We

Mike Steger 27:12
have to. We we might have to have an episode just about what we remember about puberty. But

Jodi Wellman 27:17
I can't use that word. It's a word I just can't use. What word? P u b e r t y, can't say it.

Mike Steger 27:23
I feel like the way that you said that was worse than just saying it. Yeah. So, like, this is the thing I'm very curious about. So, are we saying that societally it's terrible to rate people's attractiveness? But personally, individually, you only you only die once, so you might as well like take note of that cute waiter or that attractive. What are other humans I see? Barista, right?

Speaker 1 27:55
Are you saying that?

Jodi Wellman 27:57
It's a great question. I didn't know I was saying any. What I do think upon reflection in this instant is, I guess I just wish we lived in a world where we're all admitting that we're all doing the rating anyway, and that we don't have to judge it as saying we're bad and it's shallow and calloused. And I don't want to. I don't want to make anyone feel bad. Like for example, it would be offensive to say in a crowd of people you're a two. That's I don't want to do. I could

Mike Steger 28:22
say you're a nine though.

Jodi Wellman 28:24
I mean, maybe if they were like, I think I'm a 10, and you've just insulted them by calling them an A rather than

Speaker 1 28:29
plus, that's

Jodi Wellman 28:30
probably a problem. But I think we should all just be honest. We're animals, and we're all doing it. And so why not just quit cloaking it as this thing? Because I think we're just judging people for judging because it's such. We do it for sport. I mean, let's be kind about it, but also let's be honest about it. That we're aware and we're looking around and we're sniffing around. Sometimes, literally, hopefully not always. Your face denotes that while you're lurching, you may or may not be sniffing.

Mike Steger 29:00
Why do you think I'm lurching? I'm snuffing. That's why.

Jodi Wellman 29:03
All right, getting a lot of information from the scent. Yeah, so that's maybe that's maybe my unexpected takeaway.

Mike Steger 29:10
So doing it all the time, which is a nice way of you saying it's okay for you to do it and confessing that you do it. I'm I do it all the time as well. I feel like there was there were a few years where I didn't like it didn't occur to me. I remember this. I went to, I think like high school was not that time. Everyone was always talking about like girls, right? So who's got nice this, got nice that, who's

Speaker 1 29:38
horrible things too, Right, like it's cold. Like

Jodi Wellman 29:46
very graphic, very detailed assessment. Yeah,

Mike Steger 29:49
I remember that. I remember that from high school. Like that was a thing. Like it would go around if if a particular girl looked cold.

Jodi Wellman 29:58
Yeah,

Mike Steger 29:58
that information was spread. It'd be very

Jodi Wellman 30:00
exciting if you're in. I get that in high school. I'd be like

Mike Steger 30:03
super exciting. I mean, especially I didn't. I was terrible. I was terrible about dating. We're gonna have Jodi's guy did dating in a future episode, and not Mike's because Mike was horrible at it. Could not figure it out.

Jodi Wellman 30:14
A short episode.

Mike Steger 30:15
But yeah, so those things were exciting. But then I went to a very very liberal school, and this was late 80s, early 90s, and in these like very little schools, like it was. There's a lot about consent. There's a lot about like trying to bring down the patriarchy and erase sexism. Like there are debates about how women should be spelled because W O M A N means of man in Greek or something like that. I don't really know, right? And so people are debating should be W O M Y N or W O M M I N, like like swim swimming with no G, right? So like these sorts of things, and the idea that you would look at a woman and think, oh, there's there's breasts and and an ass and a face and all that sort of stuff was you would just never do that. Like that's not a thing. It's like somehow like that part of my brain just was went dormant. Really? Yeah. Weirdly, like because I don't like

Jodi Wellman 31:12
brainwashing.

Mike Steger 31:13
I don't think I'm actually like that. I think I'm actually very attuned to like because one is my top strength is appreciation, beauty, and excellence, and it goes for everything, right? Like humans, trees, buildings, art.

Speaker 1 31:26
Yeah,

Mike Steger 31:27
also humans, right? So I think it does come naturally to to like really enjoy seeing a beautiful person. Not necessarily to try to spread through the school who who looks cold when it flies, but for sometimes dormant. I remember the conversation with a friend at a coffee shop, and he was like, "Whoa, look at her! This was from the same school, like classmate. After after we graduated, he's like, "Wow! And I was like, "What do you mean? Yeah, like you don't notice those two girls walking there, and one is like smoking hot. I can't remember if we said smoking back then. What what the phrase was? I was like, I don't know. I don't think you're allowed to do that. He's like, Why aren't you allowed to do that? Who said you're not allowed to do that? I was like, everyone says you're not allowed to do that. Like, I don't see the big deal. And like I remember, like I was like, it was like when Dorothy steps out of the black and white post to Oz. I was like, whoa! I see it all again. All these, all these beautiful people, right? So that was an interesting moment to reflect back. Like it's I don't know what it would take. It probably would take an embarkation at this point to turn that part off of the part that sees the world. I would say just an infarction.

Speaker 1 32:48
Sorry. So we do it. Is it

Mike Steger 32:49
okay to do it? Is it okay to take joy in it? I mean, I think we talked about the dangers of truly objectifying someone. Like they are an instrument for delivering something to you, and not much else. Like in any, that's going to be terrible. It's going to make you feel as a person to do that to somebody, or it should. It makes them feel shitty, like that. They're not a complex blend of bodies and heads and spirits and hearts and all these sorts of things. Someone Wants to, but I have to admit, I want to ask you this. That's my big confession. I I want to ask you a question. I don't want to reveal my answer. But wouldn't it be interesting? Do don't you ever will when I say this now? Don't you think you will in the future wish you could get feedback next time you're giving a big talk on stage, and there's 1000s of bodies with heads or heads with bodies on the audience. Like, rate me. Like, I just got so

Jodi Wellman 33:52
nervous.

Speaker 1 33:53
Oh,

Jodi Wellman 33:53
the answer. The answer is, unless

Mike Steger 33:55
the news is bad, then I don't want to know. But yeah,

Jodi Wellman 33:57
yeah, it's like there's this wincing, like squinting curiosity, but also a little bit of maybe it's my avoidant behavior coming out of like maybe I don't want to know. Maybe back to like I don't want to go on the scale and like know my weight. I don't want that information in my brain because it's not going to be good for anybody. So I do, but I don't. Would you want to know? Would you want to get like they do that sometimes? They rate you for the speaker ratings, right? Hot or not? I'm

Mike Steger 34:27
gonna pass it around next next speech I give. I'm gonna pass it around. Hot or not?

Jodi Wellman 34:32
Yeah, like I don't care about the content of what I said. It's just this thing going on here. Or do you want to know?

Mike Steger 34:38
Fuck Mary Kill. Just have that as a rating. This speaker, Buck Mary Kill, and no, I wouldn't be satisfied with that. I still want to know the digits. I want to know my data. Yeah, I don't know why. I think I could handle it. I mean, I think I grew up believing no. There's not much of a story there, so I think I'm just curious because. Me not knowing for sure if I'm reading reality correctly makes me bonkers.

Jodi Wellman 35:06
I see. So you want to grip on what's? How would you handle it though? But also vanity

Mike Steger 35:10
because I would. I hope the number is higher than I'm giving myself credit for. But if it's not, then I would deal with that. I guess I don't really know. I don't really know what I'm coming at with this, but I would like to know.

Jodi Wellman 35:22
Well, I do think it's it's a fascinating just thought experiment. Like, what would you you want to know? And then it's what would the number be that would make you not feel demoralized versus? I

Speaker 1 35:29
would never ask

Mike Steger 35:30
that question of you too. Yes. Okay,

Jodi Wellman 35:32
I would feel really. Oh, it's so hard. Oh, and

Mike Steger 35:37
and did you put for your age?

Jodi Wellman 35:41
Well, thank you. Along with the number, yeah, totally. I because totally

Mike Steger 35:45
you're not putting yourself up against like Queen's Gambit furiosa. No,

Jodi Wellman 35:48
it's more like um, ooh, this conversation is very, very interesting.

Mike Steger 35:55
It feels normal and like horrible, doesn't it? To to talk out loud about like where we might stack up.

Jodi Wellman 36:01
It's it's very vulnerable and guttural and all the gory bits. Let's say there was a stage thing, and like I so again back to being a speaker. Now all of a sudden we should just change it to being like the the bikini walk of the beauty pageant. Like really, this is what we're doing.

Mike Steger 36:18
Competition, swimsuit competition. They call that, I think, right? I remember, like that was a big thing. Like when you only had three channels, eventually one of those channels would show some beauty pageant.

Jodi Wellman 36:28
When you're like the Price of Right

Mike Steger 36:30
guy was hosting it, I can't remember Bob Burke. I don't remember either, but I remember

Jodi Wellman 36:33
that was always it was always alluring to watch as a family, just good family programming. But um, it yeah, it has to be. I would think it's comparison to to age category.

Mike Steger 36:44
The golden bachelor versus the regular bachelor.

Jodi Wellman 36:47
I don't know. I would be sad. What would my grade? What would I want to be? Oh my god, I don't want to know. I would rather not know. It would be squirrely, swirly. What number would you be okay with?

Mike Steger 36:58
So it's interesting, right? Like at first, I was trying to move towards: Is it okay for us to to have a gander at people and have this sort of like at least some appreciate more or less middle? You know, I feel like there's always something beautiful about every person. Like I'm not saying that just to be cheesy, but there's always something like

Jodi Wellman 37:19
yeah,

Mike Steger 37:19
something just beautiful. Could be their

Speaker 1 37:21
gums.

Mike Steger 37:22
Some people have like a lot of those things. I guess that adds up to a more attractive person. The more little bits of you that coherent, like you just. I mean, I can imagine someone's got like a beautiful mouth and a beautiful eyeball and a beautiful ear. I guess I never look at ears, but like a beautiful hair, like a beautiful neck, and but like still would be bad somehow in in

Jodi Wellman 37:43
in totality

Mike Steger 37:44
symphony,

Jodi Wellman 37:44
yes. So

Mike Steger 37:45
probably the cohesion thing is a is a good bit, but like you know to some degree, like if everyone has beautiful parts, then the more beautiful parts you put into one person, the better looking they are. Like I don't know, maybe that's like you're

Jodi Wellman 37:57
building a mr. Potato Head of a person. Yeah.

Mike Steger 37:59
Okay. You're voting your number. Oh yeah. Oh, I've I've got. I was. I started writing a short story one time about a future where we select our sex bots. I mean, it was our marriage bots, really. But like, it it had the pitch was it was creating a Kafka esque world for this, where you had to you had to choose a value for everything, literally everything. Like you, you really got to optimize. Like, what voice do you want? How loud? What's the overall vocal range? Is it starting high or low? And then, of course, with appearance too, like eyebrows. Are you happy with this eyebrow? Okay, let's move on to eyelid. How do you like the way the eyelid retracts into the eyes? I don't know. Like, I was like, like this. I think I'm. I might still write it, but I thought this idea of like the hyper optimizing world for our partners, even if they're kind of non thinking robots, is still going to be hell on earth, right? So maybe it's not just like all adding up little bits here or there, but if we reverse, we stand behind the gaze, right? Like, and like, okay, people are thinking about us. How much do we want to know? You know, I work at a university, and I know for sure, like, there's like hardly a single student is like even wondering about this, right? Because I'm in, I belong to that species called too old to give a shit, right? So, like, that's that's who I spend most of my time with, right? Is like people who are like, is that old guy your teacher, or do you have a different old guy? You know, it's like, it's like I got as far as they think about me, right? So, um, that age thing ends up being an issue. But like, I'm going to I'm going to some conferences to speak this year, right? So, I'll wind up on stage and I will be cured. What people think about me, and if I think that they'll make me happy in what they think, I'm probably going to be happy about that. But if I think they might, I might not want to hear the answer. Like the the occasional time when one of my undergraduate students will ask me how old I am, and then like a moron, I say, "Well, how old do you think I am?

Jodi Wellman 40:26
What do you get?

Mike Steger 40:27
Then it's almost always worse than you think it's going to be. Like I don't know, my grandparents. Did you see more than my parents? Maybe my grandparents' age, like 60. I'm like

Jodi Wellman 40:36
that kid failed. The class failed

Mike Steger 40:38
out of college. Failed. Yeah. So, but yeah. So I think that like that this is another problem with the entire thing of trying to rate people for appearance because because we can't avoid doing it, we can't avoid doing it because it's so vital, seemingly embedded in the world that we live in. So we can't avoid doing it, but we also can't avoid it being done to us, and it feels just as vital whatever judgments people make of us.

Jodi Wellman 41:05
Right

Mike Steger 41:05
on the reverse side, so it's it's a trap. It's it's a kind of a trap. It is a

Speaker 1 41:10
trap.

Mike Steger 41:11
If we said fuck it, I want to see reality clearly. At least we can sort of say, well, at least I know what you think of me, right? That sort of thing. This reminds me of a bit of research you might not know. People who think they are attractive, who perceive themselves as being more attractive, think their lives are more meaningful. No way. It's a super fuck you to like people who think who wanted to value only meaning, right? So if we think we're attractive, we score ourselves higher on meaning life as well, and okay. So then they had people look at other people's pictures in the same study. This is Sanders et al. 2022. They had people look at other people's pictures and then rate how attractive they thought they were, and how meaningful the raters thought the pictures' lives were. And so the this isn't the same thing as like if I was the picture, you were rating me for attractiveness, I was rating me for meaning. Yeah, this is like you'd be rating me for attractiveness, and you'd be rating me for meaning, and you're

Jodi Wellman 42:12
meaning what I think you are.

Mike Steger 42:14
And they thought that the people who were better, who thought they were better looking, also thought their lives were more meaningful. It's like not only when we look at other people, we think of ourselves. Yeah, I think I'm attractive. I think my life is meaningful. We also think that that same process is going on in other people's heads. Like if you think you're attractive, you also think your life is meaningful.

Jodi Wellman 42:38
Interesting.

Mike Steger 42:40
Crazy, isn't it? Now I, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a cynic, right? So I'm assuming they ran it to see if objective attractiveness was related to self-perceived meaning. I don't really know. Like, I can't remember what they found for that. If they didn't find that, or they didn't report it. If they didn't report it, they didn't find it, and if they didn't find that, then somehow my thinking another person is attractive doesn't accumulate to them feeling their life is more meaningful. So maybe more attractive people don't feel like their lives are more meaningful. We just think they do, right? They think they do all these sorts of great things. So then, using that research, given that I think my life is pretty meaningful, I must think I'm reasonably hot, right? So a number,

Speaker 1 43:29
yeah,

Mike Steger 43:30
I really think, like most Americans, what is it? 75% of Americans think they're better looking than average. Goes to our poor math skills and our large egos, so I think it's better looking than average. So if I had like an average rating, I feel a little sad. I don't know why, but like that would make me sad. So the whole thing about putting yourself out there and saying these sorts of things is finding out you're wrong.

Jodi Wellman 43:58
Yeah,

Mike Steger 43:59
like what would it do for me if I found I was right? But what would I do with the information? I don't really know. Like maybe, what

Jodi Wellman 44:04
would it do for you if you got a higher number than you banked on? If you're like, oh my god, you guys gave me like a 9.7. Not to say you wouldn't earn that, but like let's say it's a little higher fractionally. I mean, I

Mike Steger 44:13
can't imagine. I can't. I can't imagine that you can go through life as a nine or a 10 and not know. I feel like people be all over you all the time about that sort of stuff.

Jodi Wellman 44:20
Yeah,

Mike Steger 44:21
you know what I mean. Like they're they're exceptional people. Like if you just look at their numbers.

Speaker 1 44:25
Yeah,

Mike Steger 44:25
those would be the top 2% of best looking people on the world. Like that's those people aren't going to be like I don't know about that person. I don't know. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 44:34
They're somehow

Jodi Wellman 44:35
going to have had information along the way that

Speaker 1 44:37
leads. I think

Mike Steger 44:38
life as an eight would be very interesting. Ladies would be very interesting. You'd be hot. People react to you like that.

Jodi Wellman 44:43
Yeah,

Mike Steger 44:44
I don't think that's not my experience of life. So I can't imagine I would be that. And if I was rated as an eight by the consensus of humanity, I'd be really annoyed at them because I've gotten no advantages.

Jodi Wellman 44:55
They've acted like translated for me.

Mike Steger 44:58
Yeah, I'm like. What the fuck? You thought I was an eight, but you treat me like a six. Why? Why would you do that? Like that doesn't do me any good,

Jodi Wellman 45:06
right? You know what's interesting after this idea about meaning and the connection between perception of attractiveness, the research in the world of cosmetic surgery. You know, they glom onto that stuff and like the degree to which you're happy a year later, you know, and happy is different than meaning. I know, but that idea of like the belief that if I could fix myself physically, that then I'll be in a better position, and then I can get on with my real life, you know. Like I think a lot of goals are tied to like to its confidence, and some of that then relates back to the body and embodiment. And so, if I can fix my face or my body, or if I could just get rid of this, I don't know. I know friends who have after pregnancy; they just they lost their mojo in life because they just felt bad about their bodies, and so they got their bodies altered, and that gave them a lift on life, literally. And it then has led to things in their life where it's like because I was so confident with that, then I went and I applied myself, and I got this new client, and I did these things. You know, of course, there's lots of chicken and egg, but yeah, the idea of like, what would it take to construct meaning and or happiness if it means that your relationship to your body is enhanced? Because maybe you have like I'd like a study where people falsely rate you higher and give you that sense of oh my gosh, I didn't know all this time. My mirror experience has been so jaded. I'm actually better than I thought. See, I look like Alan

Mike Steger 46:42
Alda. Do you,

Speaker 1 46:45
Alan? We're so sorry. We love you. You're

Mike Steger 46:53
still alive. Yeah. We apologize.

Jodi Wellman 46:56
So how do we put a bow? What do? How do we? Or not even a bow, just like a piece of tape. How do we wrap up this conversation?

Mike Steger 47:05
Yeah, I think we wrap up this part of the conversation with a with a a vow, right? We talked a lot about vows. We talked about monogamous vows to our partners, which means we don't always get to go after the attractive bodies and with heads and heads with bodies that we see out there. We've talked about the deep, deep vow you've taken to sleep with Adrian Brody if he shows up in your bathtub, and he as well. I guess as much as it pains me, Jessica Alba, Mila Kunis, if you're out there, I have to like suppose probably cleared this with my spouse. I'm not sure she was she really understood the gravity of the situation. So I think we close with yet another bow, which would be the next time we give a talk on the big stage, we say my ass, not just ass. Like rate, write me right now. Who in the audience thinks I'm a one, hands or no two? Me do that or something. I don't know. Yeah, I think that's bow number one. Bow number two. This is really in your wheelhouse since you brought it up. Like, there's been a lot of talk about Mar-a-Lago face. Do you know this, right? Like, there's like this convergence around a kind of like our appearance. Then, what we see as attractive, oftentimes then is shaped by other cultural factors and group identities. Like, we want to look like we belong to a particular group, and longing as a body is cultural driver. But since you brought this up, we got Maralago face, and next week we'll hear from you if there's also Mar-a-Lago asshole. Oh

Jodi Wellman 48:50
yeah, we're talking more about that.

Mike Steger 48:51
Yeah, whiter, whiter is better in that world. Maybe I hate to cast those versions. I don't really know.

Speaker 1 48:58
Yeah, yeah.

Jodi Wellman 48:59
Don't, don't just, don't. The

Mike Steger 49:01
bleaching is to lighten things up down there. So, like, this is where I'm wondering where where I'm not, but I'm wanting to say when is when is it bleached enough? Who tells you? Okay,

Jodi Wellman 49:16
I feel like if we were to end, that would be a great end. But I feel like there's also a different ending that maybe tell us

Mike Steger 49:23
that was my ending. That was my ending. How's white enough? I was right. I got my mug and everything, but okay.

Jodi Wellman 49:31
Yeah. Well, I feel like we've we've gone scatter shot because on one hand, it's idea like we are objectifying ourselves and others. Research is clear. If we can think from back to your point about you wanted to go outside in, but we do know that living life from the inside out, like seeing the body as our vehicle, not our play toy or thing that others are seeing, I don't have a way to untangle that because as long as we're living in such. And we haven't become recluses where that might, or go get brainwashed at a very liberal university for a few years, where you stop seeing people as attractive. There's a lot. There's more going on there.

Mike Steger 50:11
I had no clue, man.

Jodi Wellman 50:13
No, but how do we stop the self-surveillance, or do we just accept that there's going to be self-monitoring and surveillance, and also monitoring and surveillance of others, is that the answer? I don't know. I'm okay to not have an answer. I'm okay to have this be it to be continued.

Mike Steger 50:26
Okay, I'm I'm gonna say there's an answer.

Speaker 1 50:29
Tell us

Mike Steger 50:30
right, and so and so part of it is right. So we've got the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh. Like this dualism, this idea that to have a meaningful life, you don't see hotness, you don't see sex appeal, you don't feel lust, you don't feel the bubbling something or other of puberty. Can't remember what that was already. I've forgotten, right? That probably makes a world where we separate out, we sift out the attractiveness or the beauty we see around us from its importance, which is equally unfair. And if we can acknowledge that we ourselves are reluctant to be judged, but can live with

Speaker 1 51:12
it

Mike Steger 51:12
based on our attractiveness, because we know there's so much more going on than just that, then maybe we can Turn down the voltage of these sorts of thing of thoughts, attraction, physical beauty, desire, whatever it is, towards us, from us. That it's just part of the experience of encountering other people. Maybe then it doesn't become this thing that can be so damaging downstream when it becomes acquisitive, when it becomes possessive, when it becomes a trophy. Right?

Speaker 1 51:51
That's the solution.

Jodi Wellman 51:57
I bought in. I like that.

Speaker 1 51:58
All right. Let's go rate some people.

Jodi Wellman 52:01
I'm gonna go cheers you, and maybe we'll include a number with that. I don't know, an above-average number.

Mike Steger 52:12
Above, thank God. I can't imagine. I'd be again myself.

Jodi Wellman 52:16
Demoralizing, right? Okay.